Curse

Savio · Nov 14, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Ture but you don't get a thread this long this quickly if most of then DID'NT care about it. Hence why I said what I did.

Forum posters != general population.

Fates · Nov 14, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Moriz, people simply do not want to change...

That seems to be the mantra of every pvp'er to pve'er. "You suck at the game, just adapt to the changes."

And yet, when some team comes along in pvp with a unique build that beats their balanced build on a consistent basis, do they adapt (hey guys, someone bring consume corpse to counter the pet exploitable corpse) or scream for a nerf?

gene terrodon · Nov 14, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

There are 945 skills and 290 elite skills, not including PvE skills, that you can choose from.
Yet, the change of a handful deems the game unplayable?
I think not.
The argument that a (a few) builds/your favorite build is ruined fails.
First, it's not "your" build. It is a build you found posted somewhere that you were using.
Secondly, figure something out on your own.

There was a comment in the thread that playing was for fun, well, isn't part of the fun creating a single/team build to clear an area/win on PvP?

Quote:

Many Korean accounts were permanently banned

What's the deal here?

Spike · Nov 14, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Strangely enough, everybody is shouting these things:

1) Izzy doesn't care about PvE
-Barrage got buffed and Mhenlo got WoH after people complained about it
2) Necros have never received a buff
-That's because a lot of the skills are already overpowered like hell, and they simply don't need buffs
3) Pet nerf has completely screwed up PvE
-It's PvE. There's corpses every-RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing-where.
4) The sin class is now useless
-The sin class has always been useful, but the SP bar was so good that nobody ever realized what else the sin class could do
5) PvP game balance destroys PvE game balance
-PvE doesn't need game balance. Almost everything is already really easy. The problem is that a lot of people are too dumb to adapt to situations, and still do stuff like running SF versus destroyers.

1) wow so 4 points added to a skill and one skilled added to a hench is supposed to make up for 2.5 years of not careing I don't THINK SO.
3) People are moaning about the nerf NOT MAKEING SENSE because of what anet has been telling us for the past 2.5 years not that it will kill pve.
4) the Sin class has allways been useless pretty much in pve so whats you point.
5) Sigh the oh so often retort of a pvper who has NO idea what pve is like. PVE DOES need balance because as shocking as it might be to you pvpers its actually played by MOST people who play GW. You know the ones that PAY for the servers and anets wages so constantly change our game for no reason. if it was not for us the game would of been dead a LONG time ago.

moriz · Nov 14, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

it really all boils down to the skill level and understanding of the two communities.

in pvp, you play against other people. to gain an overall advantage over the other guy, you improve your personal playing skills. however, there's no stopping the other guy from improving over you, so you have to improve some more. as a result, the overall skill level in pvp has been steadily increasing over time.

in contrast, pve will only cause you to improve up to a certain point. AI does not improve over time. as a matter of fact, it can be said that the skill level in pve have been DECREASING, with the introduction of ridiculously powerful pve skills and nerfing of some of the harder missions.

the net result is that the skill level difference between the two communities are getting wider and wider. currently, trying to get a pvp'er and a pve'er to discuss skill balance, is like two people arguing in different languages. to the pvp'er, the pve'er's complaints are completely trivial. to the pve'er, the pvper's generally greater understanding of the game and skill balance will go right over the pve'er head, since the average pve'er are not good enough to even understand that he's not as good.

now, let's take a look at the skill changes:

assassin changes: really, these do not affect pve'ers because let's face it: pve assassins don't use these skills.

SR spirit change: doesn't affect pve necromancers, since none of them rely on spirits dying as an energy engine. there's enough things dying in pve that it's totally irrelevant.

pets no longer leaving corpses: doesn't affect the vast majority of pve, simply because there are enough corpses laying around. for those strange people who rely on pet corpses to fuel MM builds when there are not enough exploitable corpses: why the hell are you using a MM build in that zone to begin with? even in B/P builds, the pet corpses should not make or break it completely. if it does, then it's time to find a new farming build.

ranger changes: does not affect pve, except maybe barrage. but hey, that's a buff.

so as you can see, the update leaves most of pve completely untouched. pve'ers should have little, if anything, to complain about.

lyra_song · Nov 14, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

The pet thing is an irritation, primarily because it's so...clumsy. It's a truly UGLY way to fix the problem. The problem that, note, wasn't even THERE in PvE.

But yes, if it makes you feel better: you're better at everything than everyone. That doesn't mean nobody has a right to be irritated, though. Skill is not a prerequisite for expressing irritation.

This is my problem with it as well. It doesnt bother me, PvP or PvE wise, since I am adaptable and I don't mind changes.

I dont have a problem that its a nerf, or a change.
I have the problem that it feels so tacked on, clumsy, ugly, inelegant, stupid. It just feels so half-assed. The designer in me is screaming in agony. It feels like a drastic desperate measure.

Maybe Anet needs to rethink pets altogether. Their role in a party, their function, their costs, their pros and cons. Their effect on Soul Reaping. Their synergy with a party (ie: shouts).

If anet is removing the pet corpse, making the pet a TRUER extension of the ranger (ranger + pet = only 1 corpse, instead of 2), then the behavior of the pet should be more weaponlike, and less like an ally/hero/party member (imo).

Moriz: You need to stop operating under the assumption that PVE players understand the game less than PVP players.

Myself, I understand the game mechanics fine and choose to play PvE instead of PvP. I prefer my competition fun, lighthearted and casual, thats why I play TF2 and not Halo3.

dont feel no pain · Nov 14, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Necro's are fantastic and have energy management without any skills

, i love them, very unique and fun to play, the nerf doesn't bother me one bit as they are still fantastic =D

As for ranger.... I feel that Energizing Wind got overnerfed, the change before was perfect... but 26 seconds of it is just insane... almost pointless, not just for farming, but in general.

And going to sins... goodbye to that boring old combo

Akaraxle · Nov 14, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Moriz: You need to stop operating under the assumption that PVE players understand the game less than PVP players.

It is not an assumption. Most high-level PvP players have played their share of PvE before becoming so, and even farmed a ton (before tournament rewards came) to embellish their toons. One guy I played with last night is champion 5 or 6, and rank 8 Ebon Vanguard. Can the same be said for PvE only players?

Spike · Nov 14, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Forum posters != general population.

never said they did, but they seem to represent to a greater or lesser degree depending on whats been nerfed what thier thinking.

X Salvation X · Nov 14, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

R.I.P Assassins

April 28, 2006- November 13, 2007

No more sp sins maybe? I'd love that. I was amazed none of my custom builds got nerfed. I actually benefieted now because of some of these updates. Props to Anet for listening to some commenys.

eriello · Nov 14, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

now, let's take a look at the skill changes:

assassin changes: really, these do not affect pve'ers because let's face it: pve assassins don't use these skills.

this is what YOU think. so don't go talking about "pve assassins" in general, talk about yourself.
changes on Horns are quite nonsense.
changes on BLS could be good, but make them hit even if target is NOT hexed. skill is currently bugged. (is Anet giving us a Black Phoenix Strike now?)

oh, and no exploitable corpses for pets is quite illogical imho.

ValaOfTheFens · Nov 14, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

I can't believe how much people seem to hate Minion Masters. Why?

My primary character is a Necromancer and I like to use a variety of builds so PvE will remain interesting(she's beaten all 3 campaign and I don't have GWEN yet). I never relied on pets to make minions in any place other than Tomb but I respect others wish to do so. MMing is one of the most challenging Necro builds around. You have to wait for something with an exploitable corpse to die in order for the build to actually do anything. None of the PvE-only skills that summon allied creatures to your aid leave exploitable corpses(I cried when I discovered that about the Assassin Support thing). Its still possible to MM most areas of all 4 games but you have to know the area you're going into. I've MMed solely using charmable animals(it was an experiment I did out of boredom in HM) and while its not very good or efficient its doable. I rarely MM myself anymore but I bring a MM hero when needed.

MMing is probably the most thankless role you'll ever play after Monking. People constantly yell "Make some minions!" and "Why u only have 3 minions? U can have 10, rite?" and they don't seem to realize that you have to kill things before that can happen. With the pet nerf Tomb runs will be more fail for people who've never done it. I usually raise a minion or two to keep the Grasps busy while everyone runs away. Now I'll just have to hope everyone is as good at running away as I am.

Snow Bunny · Nov 14, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

That seems to be the mantra of every pvp'er to pve'er. "You suck at the game, just adapt to the changes."

And yet, when some team comes along in pvp with a unique build that beats their balanced build on a consistent basis, do they adapt (hey guys, someone bring consume corpse to counter the pet exploitable corpse) or scream for a nerf?

It's not that we can't adapt. I remember Nurse in the gladiator's arena threatening people with a ban if they made this comment (in regards to HA with heroes)
Listen, before you make anymore comments like this, understand one thing.
We don't enjoy mundane gameplay in PvP. Sinspike, bspike, sway, they're not fun to play/play against. Interesting builds, dynamic gameplay, that's fun.

We can adapt. Most do adapt. It's that it's not fun, it's crappy to play with.

The skill level, the basic gameplay of Pve NEVER changes. You always know what you're up against, you can always PREPARE for it. There's a set monster difficulty, they have set skills, hell, they even have a set aggro pattern that's fairly easy to manage with a degree of competence.

This skill update was one of the few that I believe has actually done any good for this game.

So, yes. Adapt. Because if you can't after a couple of rather slight twitches to overall pve gameplay, that's bad. Just thank god they didn't nerf BHA/SS/TNTF/SY/Insert PvE-staple skill here.

Tab · Nov 14, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's not that we can't adapt. I remember Nurse in the gladiator's arena threatening people with a ban if they made this comment (in regards to HA with heroes)
Listen, before you make anymore comments like this, understand one thing.
We don't enjoy mundane gameplay in PvP. Sinspike, bspike, sway, they're not fun to play/play against. Interesting builds, dynamic gameplay, that's fun.

We can adapt. Most do adapt. It's that it's not fun, it's crappy to play with.

The skill level, the basic gameplay of Pve NEVER changes. You always know what you're up against, you can always PREPARE for it. There's a set monster difficulty, they have set skills, hell, they even have a set aggro pattern that's fairly easy to manage with a degree of competence.

This skill update was one of the few that I believe has actually done any good for this game.

So, yes. Adapt. Because if you can't after a couple of rather slight twitches to overall pve gameplay, that's bad. Just thank god they didn't nerf BHA/SS/TNTF/SY/Insert PvE-staple skill here.

Snow speaks the truth.

Crom The Pale · Nov 14, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

My 2cents on these updates.

The sin changes seam ok to me, nothing I used over much so I can't say it hurt me, sorry to those that feel its a bash to thier favorite build.

Ranger, love the barrage bost it really needed.
Pets without corpses is a little confusing, but if they are going that route for PvP reasons why not reimpliment the death of pet resets all of your skills in PvP. That is a major pain in PvE so either remove it for both or give it to both.

MarlinBackna · Nov 14, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

R.I.P Assassins

April 28, 2006- November 13, 2007

I am glad for the sin updates. I was really tired of 4/12 sins in AB (on the other team) that all carry Horns of the Ox, Falling Spider, etc. It was stupid to play as them and against them and hopefully will allow for better variety in sin builds. Sorry to burst your AB single-build bubble.

Kyp Jade · Nov 14, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by dont feel no pain

As for ranger.... I feel that Energizing Wind got overnerfed, the change before was perfect... but 26 seconds of it is just insane... almost pointless, not just for farming, but in general.

All I've got to say

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Nah it wasnt nearly enough, a balanced EW should look something like

25 cost
120 recharge
30 duration
Lvl 1-6
Half HP as normal Spirits
Added Drawback "Party Members affected by this miss with hammer attacks 75% of the time, necromancer enchantments are unnaffected by this spirit"

Seriously I am so tired of seeing this spirit pop up every match it drives me to pve.

Izzy please delete EW, RaO and OoA are actually fine as they are, but EW serves as a 'Deadly Paradox'.

Fates · Nov 14, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's not that we can't adapt. I remember Nurse in the gladiator's arena threatening people with a ban if they made this comment (in regards to HA with heroes)
Listen, before you make anymore comments like this, understand one thing.
We don't enjoy mundane gameplay in PvP. Sinspike, bspike, sway, they're not fun to play/play against. Interesting builds, dynamic gameplay, that's fun.

So any build that beats your W/W/M/M/E/N/R/ whatever "balanced" team isn't fun to play or play against? What makes an interesting build then? One that uses the exact same classes as you but maybe takes shock instead of shove? As long as the other team is running the same build as you it's fun?

Quote:

We can adapt. Most do adapt. It's that it's not fun, it's crappy to play with.

So change and innovation isn't fun. Got it.

Quote:

The skill level, the basic gameplay of Pve NEVER changes. You always know what you're up against, you can always PREPARE for it. There's a set monster difficulty, they have set skills, hell, they even have a set aggro pattern that's fairly easy to manage with a degree of competence.

Yup, except when our skills get changed to accommodate pvp.

Quote:

This skill update was one of the few that I believe has actually done any good for this game.

So, yes. Adapt. Because if you can't after a couple of rather slight twitches to overall pve gameplay, that's bad. Just thank god they didn't nerf BHA/SS/TNTF/SY/Insert PvE-staple skill here.

Jetdoc · Nov 14, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

It is not an assumption. Most high-level PvP players have played their share of PvE before becoming so, and even farmed a ton (before tournament rewards came) to embellish their toons. One guy I played with last night is champion 5 or 6, and rank 8 Ebon Vanguard. Can the same be said for PvE only players?

It sounds like the person you are referring to isn't a PvP-only player...

Honestly, why does every update thread need to degrade into a PvP versus PvE ability contest?

There simply are players that are very knowledgable about PvP, there are similar players that are very knowledgable about PvE, and there are players that know a ton about both. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, but the opinions I value most come from the last camp.

Rocky Raccoon · Nov 14, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

to the pve'er, the pvper's generally greater understanding of the game and skill balance will go right over the pve'er head, since the average pve'er are not good enough to even understand that he's not as good.

To say that just because you pve you don't understand game mechanics is totally ignorant. You can understand the mechanics and not have to do pvp to do so. Not all people enjoy pvp(as in majority who play the game) and that gives you no right to belittle them.